Roth IRA Excess Contribution Correction Multiple Years
Hello,
So I recently learned of the MAGI limit on ROTH IRA contributions due to all the political chaos last year regarding Backdoor IRA’s etc… Because of that I realized I had over contributed since 2016. I have already done the disbursements and recorded them on my 2021 taxes.
I now need to go back and file 2016 – 2020 Form 5329 to make my penalty payments. I have the forms all filled out and ready to go but I have a question regarding the payment. I am sending standalone Form 5329’s with an explanation letter.
Should I send 6 separate checks (5 for me 1 for my wife) or a single check for the entire lump sum? I guess I should also ask can I mail them all in the same envelope/package as well or do I need to send separate ones for every year?
This link was a huge help on clarifying the process to follow:
https://irahelp.com/forum-post/14574-correcting-excess-roth-ira-contributions
Thank you for your assistance!
Andrew
Permalink Submitted by Alan - IRA critic on Sat, 2022-03-26 04:02
Over the years the IRS has not clarified their preferred format for 5329 forms reporting any excise tax payments. Some pundits have gone so far as to suggest a distribution distribution for each year’s excess amount, a separate check for each year’s excise tax, and separate envelopes for each year’s 5329. I doubt that many taxpayers provide this degree of separation for each year. But if you feel better adhering to these practices, it probably will slightly reduce the chance for error, lost forms, or return of the forms.
Another more frequent issue is the filing of the 5329 by itself as an independent return v. including it with a 1040X for each year. The instructions indirectly request a 1040X if a prior return was filed, but most people do not file a 1040X since there is no real need for it. Still, some IRS agents are inclined to return a stand alone 5329 and request that it be refiled with the 1040X each year. I would tend to provide the 1040X before providing all the other separate documentation.
Permalink Submitted by Andrew Porro on Sat, 2022-03-26 15:04
Thank you for the reply and I am glad to see it isn’t just me that finds the instructions vague:
“Prior tax years. If you are filing Form 5329 for a prior year, you must use the prior year’s version of the form. If you do not have any other changes and have not previously filed a federal income tax return for the prior year, file the prior year’s version of Form 5329 by itself (discussed earlier). If you have other changes, file Form 5329 for the prior year with Form 1040X, Amended U.S. Individual Income Tax Return.”
I feel like I am in the middle of the instruction, I don’t have any other changes for the prior years, but I have already filed my 1040 for those year. The “And” is the part that makes it unclear.
I think I will try the middle, single check for each 5329 but 1 envelope and standalone form.
Do you know how to tell if they accept/process my forms, will the fact of them cashing my checks mean they accepted the forms/corrections? Thanks!
Permalink Submitted by Alan - IRA critic on Sat, 2022-03-26 15:12
Yes, the instruction you are referring to has caused issues for years, since it should have been more specific, given that most people with IRAs have filed tax returns, and the instructions just infer that you need to file a 1040X. Still, the 1040X performs no function other than possibly to provide an expllanation box to enter why you are filing the 5329.
In most cases the IRS does not respond to your forms. I guess they assume if you do not hear from them, the forms have been accepted, with your cancelled check as your documentation. So I agree with your plan of action.
Note that the IRS may or may not bill you late interest for the excise taxes that are late.
Permalink Submitted by Andrew Porro on Sun, 2022-03-27 14:34
Sorry, I have a follow-up question. Should I mark the “Amended” check box for these forms? Going through my old taxes it doesn’t appear I submitted any 5329 for these years.
This feels like it falls into the same gray area in the instructions regarding the 1040x….
Interestingly, I opened up the instructions for 1995, even though that is older, they are more specific on when to file with 1040x
“If you owe a tax for that previous year because of an early distribution, complete the appropriate part of Form 5329 for that year and attach it to Form 1040X, Amended U.S. Income Tax Return. Be sure to include the distribution as additional income on Form 1040X if not previously reported. If you owe only a tax other than the tax on early distributions for a previous year, file Form 5329 by itself for that year”
Based on old instructions, and the fact I didn’t file a prior 5329, I am leaning toward NOT checking the amended box, but your input would be appreciated! Thanks!
Permalink Submitted by Alan - IRA critic on Sun, 2022-03-27 14:43
Agree. If you did not file a prior 5329 for a year, do not check the amended box on the 5329 for that year. Since a 5329 is a return in it’s own right, it is possible to file a 1040X with a 5329 not checked as amended.
Permalink Submitted by JJ Smith on Tue, 2023-03-28 23:32
Do you use the most current version, or the year when you had the excess contribution that is past that 6 month mark (i.e. already filed)?
Permalink Submitted by JJ Smith on Tue, 2023-03-28 23:34
I have a similar scenario, caught this year 2022 tax year unfilled so I can correct, but realized i over contributed in 2021 as well! Do I use the 5329 form from 2021 or this year 2022? Im pretty sure i dont have to amend my return just send this form + pay penalty, but not sure if i should check amended?
Permalink Submitted by Alan - IRA critic on Tue, 2023-03-28 23:46
Permalink Submitted by JJ Smith on Wed, 2023-03-29 01:52
Thank you for that. for for the 2021 tax year that I was over $1320 *6% = $79 penalty. Im mailing off a form 5329 for 2021 with $79 enclosed. As of yesterday i had vanguard do my excess withdraw 2021 $1320, 2022 $4440 unfiled, 2023 $1110 unfiled. Are you saying with this years 2022 return I also need to do another form 5329 for another $79? In my software it asked if I over contributed in 2022 and I said yes then it asks if I did an excess withdraw and i put yes. I reviewed my forms and it did not generate a 5329? Is that because I didnt do an amended 2021 1040x? Since I didnt do an amended return could I just do that second 5329 for 2022 stand alone like I did for 2021? I guess i just need to know why folks are hesistant to file amended vs just sending the 5329? Thanks!
Permalink Submitted by William Tuttle on Wed, 2023-03-29 14:16
You have an additional required Roth distribution if you had a loss and the removal total was < your excess contribution.
Permalink Submitted by JJ Smith on Tue, 2024-01-09 21:21
Hi all follow up to my question from last year now that we are in 2023I just recieved 3 2023 1099’s that i believe are for 2021, 2022, and 2023 withdraws, realated to the scenario above.
When i went to fill this out in my software its asking for my basis in Roth IRA contributions: I thought once I got to 2023 with the 1099r it was going to be smooth sailing after doing the 5329’s last year. Im stuck on 2 things 1) How do I calculate the roth basis and why do i need to do this?2) For the one 1099r it came back with 2b checked for taxable amount not determined this was from the first year that I had a partial overcontribution that I paid the penalty on. What do I need to do here?
Permalink Submitted by David Mertz on Tue, 2024-01-09 21:41
Permalink Submitted by JJ Smith on Tue, 2024-01-09 21:53
Thanks DMx! So ive been contributing to my roth for over 20 years opened in late high school. For 2021 to today i the only contributions are the ones that we see here that I had Vanguard fully remove. Does that change anything? For the one $1320 amount from 2021 (you are correct) that has “2b Taxable amount not determined” checked what do I need to do, anything?
Permalink Submitted by Alan - IRA critic on Tue, 2024-01-09 21:55
Permalink Submitted by JJ Smith on Tue, 2024-01-09 22:10
Thank you again! You are correct and I updated my dates above. My tax program did ask me to provide statements on each of the 1099r so i think im good there. Going back to the Form 8606 which must be why “Freetaxusa” is asking for my basis to fill out. Say I have contributed 100k over the course of 15 years do I need to go back to vanguard and add up all of my contributions? Does this have to gnats ass percise? I have 100ks in my Roth and im sure atleast 40-75k of direct contributions. Defintely more than the 1320.
Permalink Submitted by Alan - IRA critic on Tue, 2024-01-09 22:32
Permalink Submitted by JJ Smith on Tue, 2024-01-09 23:31
Thanks all!